A few days ago as we received notice that the Pope had died, there was a flurry of discussions about what he stood for and what he supported. One of the items that he was a huge proponent for was “Our Lady of Fatima” and the Prophecies of Fatima. I posted some links on the Blog so that some of my Protestant readers could get up to speed on what this stuff was all about. Many had either never even heard of Fatima and most had never read anything about it so it was a great opportunity to learn something.
Well one of my Catholic friends read these posts and asked the question, “Do you believe this stuff”? I guess that caused me to do a little research and study on the topic and actually think a bit on these issues.
Here is a link to a good site to get you up to speed on the core issues http://www.fatima.org.
The first question that comes to mind is, was there even a real spiritual apparition involved here? Did anything or anyone appear to these children? Being these children were not on drugs, were respectable citizens, were consistent in story and behavior etc I think we have to conclude that there was indeed a spiritual being of some sort that appeared to them. I think anyone that looks with an open mind at the facts of the situation would have to come to the same conclusion.
The second question then becomes, was this spirit being from heaven or from hell? I look at the core of the message from the being to help decipher where the being is from. What is the core message? Repent from sin and turn to Jesus. Is that a message that a being from hell would pronounce? I don’t think so. So what are we to conclude? The being is most probably from heaven. I can’t see any other conclusion.
Who is this spirit being? Well, who does she say that she is? She says that she is Mary, the mother of Jesus. If she is a Spirit being from heaven I guess we should believe who she says she is.
Then we run into the parts about praying the rosary and the devotion to Mary. Ouch, this is the hard part for a Protestant. As an evangelical I believe that when Jesus died on the cross and the curtain of the temple was torn from top to bottom that we as Christians were now given free access into the Holy of Holies and to God the Father. We no longer need the High Priest as our intermediary. We can go directly to the father, and we should.
So is it possible that we do not understand this part of the message? I must say my logic is painting me into a corner here. Bible says, “pray to God alone” (http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Scripture/Shloshah-Asar_Ikkarim/Mediator/mediator.html), but a Spirit being from heaven says pray the Rosary. Is it possible that praying the rosary is not praying to Mary?
It is obvious to me I need to do more thinking on this final point but I think it is also obvious that it would be silly to disregard Fatima out of hand.
Just a Christian trying to be intellectually honest.
Wayne Moran
ps I’m open to challenges here.
A couple of things from this particular Catholic. 🙂
First is to remember that the Catholic Church never “endorses” appearances like Fatima. The most they will do is to investigate and say that they find nothing against Scriptural teaching in it. If they do find anything against Scriptural teachings then they will condemn it. The reason they don’t “endorse” these things is that the Church always says we do not need these things … all we need is Jesus and Scripture (not exactly what you’d expect from the Church perhaps, but true.). If they find nothing to condemn they leave it up to each person to see if there is something there that helps them develop in their faith.
The second thing I’d say is to remember that the Rosary is not about praying TO Mary. It is about using those prayers as a meditation on events from Jesus’ life in the Bible. As you pray the mysteries (joyful, luminous, sorrowful, glorious), you are to put yourself mentally in the setting of each of the scenes. True, the prayer is addressed to Mary but when you consider the words, it really is asking her to pray FOR us … just as you might ask a friend or neighbor to pray for you. (Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death). As this prayer is interspersed with the Our Father (Lord’s Prayer) and the Glory Be (Glory be to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be.) it becomes easier to see how this series of prayers is about bringing us closer to Jesus and to God. Even the Fatima prayer that often is said between decades is to Jesus (Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins and save us from the fires of hell. Bring all sinners to heaven, especially those most in need of Thy mercy. Amen.).
Personally, I don’t pay much attention to those sorts of things … like Fatima or what is said to be happening in Medjuorge.
You might find this article interesting. I put it up a long time ago. There is documentation at the bottom. Just some food for thought. I’m a convert from Protestantism and do not consider myself a Fatima fanatic, but I never cease to be moved by this event in 1946. I’ve never seen it discredited; indeed if it weren’t for an OOP Fatima book I picked up in a used bookstore, I would have never read about it.
There are a couple references to it on the net, but nothing as detailed as this.
I didn’t post a comment because I wanted to keep my personal info private. You can put up a link if you deem the page worthy.
http://home.earthlink.net/~agless/Doves.htm
Anonymous
I provided these links in another forum for your readers, here they are. I am glad you took a chance and discussed this. No we do not pray to Mary, but we ask her to be a Prayer Partner with us, just like you may ask the little old lady in CHurch to pray for you.
EWTN is a Catholic Media source.
http://www.ewtn.com/fatima/
The Message was published by the Vatican.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html
A Monk provides a badly done website, but very factual write up. The blue makes my eyes burn.
http://www.monksofadoration.org/fatima.html
Very even handed commentary on your part. I’m not Catholic and I don’t pretend to understand some aspects of their faith. However, I don’t believe that gives me the right to belittle what they believe.
Your analysis of Fatima is in line with my beliefs on the subject. Obviously this spirit or message or whatever it was has done an enormous amount of good for the faith of many christians.
I was also happy to read the comments by Julie. I’ve never understood the rosary and in fact had been misinformed as to what purpose it served. Hopefully I understand it better now.
Thanks for writing this, I learned a lot.
Christian Carnival LXVI
Presenting the Christian Carnival LXVI.
Dear Wayne,
In Catholicism, the word ‘prayer’ has a wider meaning and usage than in Protestant understanding, it does not necessarily mean ‘worship’ which is due to God alone. It can mean ‘spiritual conversation’, ‘intercessory act or asking someone to pray in return just like what we would ask a friend on earth to do’.
The ‘Hail Mary’ prayer which was also called ‘Angelic Salutation’ is nothing but to recall to mind our fundamental Christian Faith -“The Word Became Flesh (Jn 1)”.
Which is why we always repeat it in the Rosary, while meditating on the mysteries of Christ’s life on earth. On top of that, this is also one of the most easily memorized prayer besides the ‘Our Father’ and ‘Glory Be’. So, why not make use of it to recall to something holy, especially when we consider in many centuries ago, not many knew how to read…
Just like we would keep repeating ‘Alleluia, Alleluia…’ when singing praise to God because it is the easiest expression of praise to God which every Christian knows. It is not the number of words pronounced that is important, but the effect of these repetition in focusing our mind towards something deeper and holy.
In Luke 1, we read of the prophesy of Mary that
“All generations shall call me blessed”.
So, what more can we say except this simple and beautiful prayer which has such deep meaning in recalling us back to the mystery of “God became man”? The Archangel Gabriel first said it, the unborn prophet John the Baptist jumped with joy when hearing Mary’s visitation, and the mother of this prophet exclaimed with a loud voice
“Blessed are you among women…”
and even an ordinary woman did the same during Jesus’ preaching
“Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breast that nursed you”.
Well, as what Jesus’ reply to the woman, we don’t honour Mary JUST BECAUSE she is His mother, we honour her because of what she represents as a true Christian,
“Hearing the Word and does it.”
See also,
“Let it be done to me according to Your Word” Luke 1.
And of course we can access to God directly,we do all the times, but what is wrong if I also ask my friends to pray for me? I have never met any Christians in any denominations who don’t ask others to pray for them.
In Catholic understanding, ‘death’ does not cut us off from this communion in the Body of Christ. Saints or Mary who have passed before us are very much alive in Christ, and we are still one body as brothers and sisters in Him. If you are now in heaven, wouldn’t you even show a little concern for your loved ones who are still struggling on this earthly journey?? Surely we would, we wouldn’t just be sitting there and forget everything about our loved ones on earth, or at least we would not wish our deceased loved ones to be doing so! When I was alone enjoying good times in the Disneyland, I think about my busy loved ones who couldn’t yet join me, and wished they were there too with me.
If you look up the net, you might find some good sites, as well as some bad sites on Fatima or any topics! Always people misuse or abuse the real purpose of things. I don’t go fanatic about Fatima apparition. But there is no reason for me to reject it, simply because my Catholic faith does not teach me to rely on miracles or supernatural things in order to be saved. The real Fatima message is simple :
“Repend and amend our life, return to God, stop sinning…”.
If God wants to send Mary to REMIND us, who are we to say ‘No’? Her visit to us does not lead us away from God, or end in herself, but to Jesus, just like what we find in Jn 2 :
“Do whatever He tells you”.
And if we believe the Gospel is living Word of God (meaning that it is not a record of WHAT HAPPENED 2000 years ago, but HOW THINGS ARE STILL HAPPENING in our daily lives and HOW THINGS CAN HAPPEN), we find in Luke 1:
“Why should this honour be given to me, that the Mother of My Lord SHOULD COME AND VISIT ME….”
About the Rosary, it is also called the “Garden of the Gospel”. God came to share our humanity in the person of Jesus. His foot steps on earth should not remain a historical record. Note that our Christian response to God’s Word is unique, meaning that the Gospel does not say in each sentence: Verse 1: Do this.. Verse 2: Do not do that… But by pondering on the life and actions of Jesus in various situations or parables. Indirectly, we see what God is speaking to us through these events. So the Rosary is a foumula of prayer where we put our mind into deep ponder on what meaning the events in Christ’s life has on us everyday as Christians. And we have found it to be so effective, and which is why we pray it everyday.
Why Mary then? Simply because as the Gospel reminds us twice:
“Mary kept all these things and PONDERED THEM DEEP IN HER HEART” Luke 1&2.
Who else so dear to Jesus and has been pondering about his mind so well if not His mother, the FIRST CHRISTIAN! Do not forget it is she ( and of course St.Joseph too)who taught Him the Torah, Psalms etc… And her presence in the Gospel is silent full of pondering on His life.
To summarize, the Rosary is about pondering on the life of Jesus together with His mother.
God bless you.
Thank you for taking the time to put your well thought out comments on the page. I’m not sure if you have been hanging around my site much but if you do, you will find out that my background is indeed Catholic. I know these teachings of the church and I agree with some and I disagree with others. The main point here is that you took the time to have a well thought out conversation. That right there is one thing that will help bridge the divide between Catholics and evangelicals. There is certainly much more that we share in common than that which we disagree.
God Bless you.
Wayne
Hi Wayne,
Indeed you are Catholic. Please visit the website of
http://www.chnetwork.org/
and join the forum.
You will be a better Catholic after all these searching and brushing up. You know, many of the best Catholics I have known are actually those converts from Protestanism.
Read “The Catholic Church and the Bible” by Peter M.J. Stravinskas
God bless
I assure you I am not…
The one “true” church thing is a huge problem. In my humble opinion, the one true church is the body of true believers and the body of all truth. The Catholic church is full of way to much error, at the same time the evangelical world is also full of a lot of error.
So, to say it most succinctly, I am a follower of Jesus Christ that is heartily seeking truth in all areas that it can be found and following where the Holy Spirit leads me.
Wayne
Hi Wayne, I hope you don’t get me wrong that I am trying to convert you. But one thing, before we say that Catholic is wrong or evengelical is wrong, I think we better make sure we really understood the real teaching of their doctrines rather than making conclusion of our own. So, if we are looking for the truth, we should let go of our own prejudices, and let the truth itself open our mind.
You are right, the Church is indeed made up of the true believers,you are very right on this matter, when we view it in a spiritual sense. But at the same time, we must not also forget what Christ intended us ‘human being in this world’ to be, and the reasons He chose to found this Church. As someone said this: “Christ said we are not of this world, but to refuse the logic of this world is as wrong as to fully accept it”. But, if you don’t agree and have a different opinion, I do respect you still. Well, as you know, the Catholic Church is not that ‘electrified’/hyper enthusiatic in seeking converts. For us, as you well know, to be a Catholic it takes you one full year after a long and matured process of Q&A, and even after that one year, you might not even get baptised not until you are truly convinced of what you think you believe. Being a Catholic does not give you a passport to heaven, so is being any member of any Christian groups. But does it mean I no longer have to be a Christian? Nomatter how right we we get to argue our points, if we don’t do as what is written in Cor 13, we are in fact nothing.
Well, God bless.
I am Catholic and there are many parallels between Fatima and Lourdes, which actually resulted in the canonization of St. Bernadette of Lourdes. It was a similar event, an apparition of the Blessed Virgin appeared to her, bringing a message of peace and love. The Song of Bernadette actually won 4 Oscars (TWELVE nominations)in the 1943. Let’s see Hollywood do that again.